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Thread: Need help with an AABBB arrangement, please.

  1. #11
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    Thanks, dflat. Great app; great board.
    Jack

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaleMac View Post
    The Player doesn't completely ignore double-barlines and repeat symbols - they will affect the drum pattern slightly.
    And I have stumbled across a serious situation wherein it makes a great deal of difference during playback whether you made the double bar line at the back of a measure as contrasted with making it at the beginning of the next measure. It has to do with 1st and 2nd endings.

    If I have a 1st ending box with a D.S. to 2nd Ending in it, which is followed immediately by the 2nd ending box itself:

    If I create a double bar line between the two boxes by using only the double bar at the back of the 1st ending box, the tune will play correctly, i.e., it will play the 1st ending, jump back up to the Segno, then play back down to the endings and play the 2nd ending only, just as it's supposed to.

    But, if I create a double bar line between the two boxes by using only the double bar at the front of the 2nd ending box, the tune will play the 1st ending, then immediately play the 2nd ending, just as if there were no D.S to 2nd Ending in the 1st ending box at all.

    I can edit the double bar line back and forth and this good-play, bad-play switch happens every time.
    Last edited by nimbleswitch; 12-18-2013 at 07:57 PM.
    Jack

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by nimbleswitch View Post
    And I have stumbled across a serious situation wherein it makes a great deal of difference during playback whether you made the double bar line at the back of a measure as contrasted with making it at the beginning of the next measure. It has to do with 1st and 2nd endings...
    Usually a 1st time ending does not have a DS because it goes back to where the opening repeat is, so at the end of the ending is a closing repeat. I am not sure we have taken into account a DS or DC inside a 1st time ending in how the player behaves. Normally you would use a coda sign just before the 1st time ending so it can jump to the 'coda' which is where your 2nd time ending starts, and use DC or DS al coda.

    Could you post (perhaps a reduced version) of the song with the main sections? Someone here can look at it. It could be that with the available player symbols and behaviors it is not easily possible.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by dflat View Post
    Could you post (perhaps a reduced version) of the song with the main sections? Someone here can look at it. It could be that with the available player symbols and behaviors it is not easily possible.
    Double Bar Test (2)

    1. Double Bar Test (Baubles, Bangles and Beads) 1 - Borodin-Forrest-Wright
    2. Double Bar Test (Baubles, Bangles and Beads) 2 - Borodin-Forrest-Wright

    They appear identical, but No. 1 works correctly, while No. 2 doesn't.

    I do realize that there may be other ways of making this particular arrangement play correctly — this is just the one that happened to occur to me as I was making it.
    Jack

  5. #15

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    I realize B,B&B is only an example, but I don't understand why you'd want to use 1st and 2nd endings when they are identical. A simple repeat section is all you'd need.
    The coda sign is always used in pairs. The first one says, "on the final time, jump from here to the other coda sign."

    You have discovered an interesting fact, sometimes it might matter how you enter a double-bar.

    If the endings were actually different, here's how I'd construct the chart:
    Double Bar Test (Baubles, Bangles and Beads) 3 - Borodin-Forrest-Wright

    (according to the conventions)
    http://www.irealb.com/forums/showthr...&p=301#post301
    )BOB
    Last edited by pdxdjazz; 12-18-2013 at 10:27 PM.

  6. #16
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    Bob, thanks for taking so much time with this.

    My two endings are different because they lead on to different sections.

    The Coda in my charts is purely visual. It does nothing on playback; I don't need it in there at all.

    I don't like using the external global repeats because I want my arrangements to play just as they appear on the chart. If I play your chart 3 without global repeats, i.e., 1x, it just plays out the Coda immediately with no repeats. If I leave your chart with the 3x in global repeats (as it arrived on my computer), the arrangement it plays is: A'BCA"CA"A'BCA"CA"A'BCA", but my arrangement is simply A'BCA"CA"A'BCA". The first A'BCA" is for a vocal, the next CA" is for an instrumental, and then it finishes with an A'BCA" vocal. If I set your chart to 2x in global repeats then it does play my arrangement correctly, but there's no way to tell from the chart alone what it's going to play. You have to check for external global repeats and know that on 2x the player will play right through the terminal bar ending (which isn't normal for a music chart) and begin replaying from A'. (It took me a while to figure out how you made the chart play from A' after the second ending. I didn't notice the terminal bar ending at first; I thought it was just a double bar.)
    Last edited by nimbleswitch; 12-19-2013 at 02:45 PM. Reason: Corrected the ABCs of my arrangement, which erroneously had an extra B section..
    Jack

  7. #17

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    Thanks for your explanation. It's amazing that the player-feature (which was developed as a simple tool for practice) can be used for more complicated arrangements and actual performance quality tracks.

    Thanks for sharing your discoveries.
    )BOB

  8. #18
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    Yeah, it's a lot of fun just playing around with this app. I did notice, on re-readin the Conventions page that you sent, that near the very top it says ". . . we came from a jazz perspective initially so we saw the app as being something you might have to use on a gig (perhaps without a rehearsal) so clarity and consistency were important to us." I can't say that I remember reading that the first time I read the Conventions page. So, it seems that they were thinking about making arrangements for gigging from the start. However, maybe they just mean they envisioned musicians just using the chart at gigs, not gigging with the playback. But it seems people are using it that way. A couple of months ago in Palm Springs I saw and heard a jazz sax man playing a solo gig, and he played against iReal (b or Pro) playback all evening.
    Jack

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by nimbleswitch View Post
    ...
    I can edit the double bar line back and forth and this good-play, bad-play switch happens every time.
    Quote Originally Posted by nimbleswitch View Post
    They appear identical, but No. 1 works correctly, while No. 2 doesn't.
    I do realize that there may be other ways of making this particular arrangement play correctly this is just the one that happened to occur to me as I was making it.
    Yes this is a bit odd, but you have not used a closing repeat at the end of the 1st time ending which is what the player is expecting to see. I cannot remember ever seeing a 1st time ending without a closing repeat, they might exist but I am not sure they are very common because generally you can simply use repeats (unless it has a complicated form or nested repeats etc.)
    So we did not check the behavior of the location of the double barline for this instance.

    Just to make it clear to anyone else following this thread, here is a way to have the form, by changing where the opening repeat and segno are:
    (I think this is what you would have done already Jack?)

    BBB more correct - Borodin-Forrest-Wright

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by nimbleswitch View Post
    ". . . we came from a jazz perspective initially so we saw the app as being something you might have to use on a gig (perhaps without a rehearsal) so clarity and consistency were important to us."
    That was written before the player existed so applied to the clarity of the chart. As many of you have found out, if you want the player to work, sometimes you have to arrange it in other ways depending on how you want the form to play for either performance or practice, but we want to adhere to normal notation conventions where possible so it works as either a visual chart or the player being 'intelligent' enough to follow the symbols, repeats etc. as a musician would. Obviously there are compromises, one of them is having the limitation of a single page, where usually in print you can add another page and copy/paste sections to make it clear.

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