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Thread: Need help with an AABBB arrangement, please.

  1. #1
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    Default Need help with an AABBB arrangement, please.

    Each section has a different ending, so perhaps that could better be depicted as: A1A2B1B2B3. After working with them for a month, I thought I understood how repeats work, but apparently I don't. I've done forum searches and haven't found this. Rather than attach my actual tune (which is loaded with lyrics), I've built a couple of samples that show my efforts at this general arrangement. Neither of them plays properly. Can't figure what I'm doing wrong here. Help would sure be appreciated on this one. Thanks in advance.

    AABBB problem (2)

    1. New Song 3 - Unknown Composer
    2. New Song 4 - Unknown Composer
    Last edited by nimbleswitch; 12-01-2013 at 07:27 AM.
    Jack

  2. #2

    Default

    This looks similar to your chart for C'est Si Bon (which didn't play as you described it for me either). I think this may be a programming quirk, since the repeats/endings play fine when the A and B structures are reversed (see attached):

    New Song 5 - Unknown Composer

    Let's hope the Admin's can solve this mystery. But I will add, for future reference, putting repeats within an ending is a bad habit to get into. You should either write out all the measures, or use "repeat measures" symbols, as I have substituted here. Just one less thing to confuse the Player (and the reader). And if you're cramped for length, remember measures don't always need to be 4 spaces to play correctly.
    There's two kinds of mistakes you can play: The ones you notice, and the ones somebody else might notice.

  3. #3
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    Thanks for the tips, DaleMac. Comments and advice from real musicians are always very much appreciated. I'll use repeat measures symbols from now on.

    As to my AABBB syntax problem, yes, my files New Song 3 and New Song 4 are in the general form of my arrangement of C'est Si Bon. I wanted to simplify my illustration of the problem, and I couldn't send the one with lyrics anyway.

    My files didn't play properly for you, either; I'm wondering if they would play correctly if you made them yourself, especially New Song 3. I.e., is the problem with the particular way I built the files? Or it is a problem for everyone building in with iReal Pro for iOS7?

    I'm still trying to think of a workaround; I tried incorporating a Coda for part of it, but have not found a way to make that work right, either. But I really don't understand why my New Song 3 doesn't work, just as it's written.

    I wonder: Could the order of entering make a difference? I.e., does it matter whether you enter the endings in order by number? Do you have to make an ending with a coda sign before you put the coda in the main part of the score? Or vice versa? Same query regarding the Dal Signo signs and instructions? Or how about the forward and backward repeat signs, [: and :] — ? Does it matter which you enter first?

    Also, I wonder whether the bar lines themselves can make a difference. E.g., does it matter whether you enter a single bar line at the end of a bar or at the beginning of the next bar? Same query with regard to double bar lines for separating sections. I see in the sticky file on conventions that we are not supposed to superimpose repeat symbols over bar lines. Is that just a cosmetic convention or can it screw up the playback? Same question regarding superimposing a double-bar line over a single-bar line—and whether it's a front-end or back-end single or double. Could any of that make a difference in playback? Could it be that it matters whether you make a mistake like that and correct it—as compared with writing it properly without having had to make a correction? . . . so many variations to try.
    Last edited by nimbleswitch; 12-01-2013 at 01:00 PM.
    Jack

  4. #4
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    Well, I've done some more experimenting, and I would be inclined to say that iReal Pro for iOS7 simply will not play back correctly if there are two number 1 endings anywhere in the piece. . . . were it not for the fact that your New Song 5 works fine with two number 1 endings. All you did was reverse the A and B sections, and that worked fine.

    Makes me wonder: What if I originally build my arrangement upside down, i.e., with the B section (with its three numbered endings) first and the A section (with its two numbered endings) second . . . and then use cut and paste to reverse them (which I assume is what you did). Would my arrangement suddenly play correctly then? Guess I'll try that next and report back.

    EDIT: I just now tried reversing your New Song 5, and it wouldn't play back properly then.
    Last edited by nimbleswitch; 12-01-2013 at 02:02 PM.
    Jack

  5. #5
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    sorry for the problems you are having. I have had a quick look and I understand what you want to do.
    As a suggestion you could write out the first section in full (instead of having repeats.) This means the player only has one set of repeats and 1, 2, 3 time bars to deal with.
    We will look into how the player interprets something like this.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by nimbleswitch View Post
    My files didn't play properly for you, either; I'm wondering if they would play correctly if you made them yourself, especially New Song 3. I.e., is the problem with the particular way I built the files? Or it is a problem for everyone building in with iReal Pro for iOS7?
    It is how our song code interprets the symbols on the page. We will take a look at this.

    Quote Originally Posted by nimbleswitch View Post
    I wonder: Could the order of entering make a difference? I.e., does it matter whether you enter the endings in order by number? Do you have to make an ending with a coda sign before you put the coda in the main part of the score? Or vice versa? Same query regarding the Dal Signo signs and instructions? Or how about the forward and backward repeat signs, [: and :] — ? Does it matter which you enter first?
    No.
    Quote Originally Posted by nimbleswitch View Post
    Also, I wonder whether the bar lines themselves can make a difference. E.g., does it matter whether you enter a single bar line at the end of a bar or at the beginning of the next bar?
    no

    Quote Originally Posted by nimbleswitch View Post
    Same query with regard to double bar lines for separating sections. I see in the sticky file on conventions that we are not supposed to superimpose repeat symbols over bar lines. Is that just a cosmetic convention or can it screw up the playback? Same question regarding superimposing a double-bar line over a single-bar line—and whether it's a front-end or back-end single or double. Could any of that make a difference in playback? Could it be that it matters whether you make a mistake like that and correct it—as compared with writing it properly without having had to make a correction? . . . so many variations to try.
    barlines on top of each other, only cosmetic. The player should just ignore this if it happens. From which space you put the barline (its right or its left) makes no difference.

  7. #7

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    A somewhat off-topic footnote regarding barlines, for nimbleswitch and anyone else who's interested: The Player doesn't completely ignore double-barlines and repeat symbols - they will affect the drum pattern slightly. A random double-barline is usually followed by a cymbal crash on the first beat, and a repeat sign usually triggers an anticipatory drum fill in the preceding measure. (I use this trick in a few of my personal charts, but I wouldn't recommend them for mass distribution since it's not an accepted scoring convention, and can look goofy.) Likewise, different section letters plus a double-barline will result in a different rhythm feel on many of the Styles. This combination is especially necessary for the "Jazz - Swing Two/Four" and "Jazz - Latin/Swing" settings to work properly.
    There's two kinds of mistakes you can play: The ones you notice, and the ones somebody else might notice.

  8. #8
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    Thanks for your response, dflat. I already did try writing out the first section without repeats, as you suggested, and that would work except for the fact that with one line for an Intro—at the top where it belongs — and two lines for the closing endings, I needed 13 lines for this chart. Well, I actually did figure out how to make an iReal Pro chart with 13 lines and it works well, albeit a bit squashed. (See recent thread on that.) But it seemed that it would look better in 12 lines, and that it should easily play with simple repeats in the first section.

    I've been working with it all afternoon and it's turning out that the culprit really is the use of two 1st Ending signs. The second BC sections with their three endings work fine if you remove that first 1st Ending sign up in section A, but with both 1st Endings in there the final endings will not play correctly, even though it appears that they should. (See Test 1, attached.) I also thought that it should work using Da Segno endings, but iReal Pro wouldn't play that at all, even though it seems to look right on the chart, too. (See Test 2, attached.)

    The bottom line is: If you already have one repeated section, with a 1st Ending sign in it, and you later make a second repeated section that has three endings, iReal Pro will not play the third ending properly.

    If the first repeated section has just a forward repeat sign and a back repeat sign without a 1st Ending sign in between—no problem. It seems to be the existence of the 1st Ending sign itself that sets up the problem. (Even just tossing in an extraneous-debris 1st Ending sign that is doing nothing up in the first section will mess up the endings at the bottom.)

    From a practical standpoint, this means that you cannot have a repeated section that has three endings if you earlier had a repeated section with two or more endings. (Like the chart I've been trying to arrange here.) This would not often be needed for just writing down a tune, but it quite often will be needed for charting an arrangement for performance, particularly in jazz with its solo repeats. And my impression is that quite a few members are using iReal Pro that way.

    Maybe admin and tech support will get a chance to look at this problem.

    Thanks, again, dflat, for your quick response, even on the weekend. This is a great forum.


    AABBB problem (2)

    1. C'est Si Bon - Test 1 - Henri Betti Bb André Hornez (1947)
    2. C'est Si Bon - Test 2 - Henri Betti Bb André Hornez (1947)
    Last edited by nimbleswitch; 12-05-2013 at 08:38 AM.
    Jack

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaleMac View Post
    A somewhat off-topic footnote regarding barlines, for nimbleswitch and anyone else who's interested: The Player doesn't completely ignore double-barlines and repeat symbols - they will affect the drum pattern slightly. A random double-barline is usually followed by a cymbal crash on the first beat, and a repeat sign usually triggers an anticipatory drum fill in the preceding measure. (I use this trick in a few of my personal charts, but I wouldn't recommend them for mass distribution since it's not an accepted scoring convention, and can look goofy.) Likewise, different section letters plus a double-barline will result in a different rhythm feel on many of the Styles. This combination is especially necessary for the "Jazz - Swing Two/Four" and "Jazz - Latin/Swing" settings to work properly.
    Interesting stuff, DaleMac, about modifying the drum kit play. It would be nice if iReal Pro had a way of resting the drum entirely, too—like the N.C. that will rest the chord player—don't you think?
    Jack

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by nimbleswitch View Post
    ...but it [I]quite often will be needed for charting an arrangement for performance, particularly in jazz with its solo repeats...
    The player supports basic forms using D.S. and D.C and as you have discovered do not cover other possibilities. We are aware more scenarios need to be catered for. We will look into this, thanks.

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