So What - Miles Davis

[nimbleswitch]

Thanks, dflat. Makes sense. Be great to be able to designate the bass notes as, e.g., /E1 or /E2. And for those who enjoy bass guitar (not myself) you might start with /B0 and go up to /E3, which would give 2 full octaves to even the double bass players. That'd be something bassists here would really dig.

[Kalokagathon]

I see that what I had thought was a fairly easy, almost mathematical determination requires much more feel for music theory than I have or am likely to acquire. I truly believe that I do not have the training and experience necessary to consider the factors you guys point out here. [...] I'll continue to take my best shot at the correct key, but I won't be at all surprised or offended if you guys correct it for me. I'll edit my posts then, like I've edited my "So What" charts now. Again, thanks to you both!

You're very welcome!

Hey, when I was young it seemed like a magical feat to write music with no instrument (some friends could do it)!! I just practiced, and now can.
Same with musical theory and analysis - can be learned, so keep at it!

Regarding corrections, I think we're all here to help. Keep dishing out the charts, and some kind soul will furnish you with indications on how to make them better or more correct, if need be.
Happy playing!

[dflat]

.. I do find this considerably exasperating, however! I see that what I had thought was a fairly easy, almost mathematical determination requires much more feel for music theory than I have or am likely to acquire...

A few further comments:

- The key signature itself is really related to how a musician reads the notation. (Not useful to anyone hearing it. A melody could be set in any key signature and still sound the same with the appropriate accidentals.) It gets complicated with music theory or no music theory—and depending on the theory you are looking at (modes go back a very long way historically).

- Some refer to the tonal center of a piece, based on what you are actually hearing and the chord of where it rests naturally, its ‘home key’. (This could include many modal tunes.) This may not be related to the key indicated by its key signature.

- Modal, we have commented on this.

- Slightly related, but probably not really
Bartok’s Mikrokosmos I remember had odd key signatures, like a piece with just a single C# or each of the two (piano) staves having entirely different key signatures. (They were simple pieces so were easy to play. Determining the key from the key signature was not possible—but it did not matter).

- A jazz song might be called up in a certain way to define the key where it could be confused depending on the experience of the band members (songs like Stella by Starlight or even My Funny Valentine) …
Eb, starts Cm
but if someone calls out 3 flats you have to still think what key it was set in iReal Pro

- Setting the key for a song in iReal Pro needs thought then; making sure it plays in concert key for your backing or the bands you are in; also that global transpose works for horn players and everyone is in agreement for concert key as you all know it (especially if they have their own charts/keys, not reading from your song files from iReal Pro). A song needs to be set in some kind of key

- A few songs like Ligia are difficult to determine. Some songs might just as well be called out with the first chord—you can always write some text in the song file as a reminder.

——
Where all these ‘keys’ are congruent for a song and you all get through playing the piece correctly—it’s a happy day

Personal anecdote:
a few years ago I was at an art gallery attending an informal playing of some of Bach’s Preludes and Fugues (piano). I was sitting beside my music teacher from my old school days and as we were listening to one of them he said, “you know, this one is either written in C# or Db depending on the publisher.” “So which key is she playing in?” I asked with a grin … He listened and finally said “C#” with a smile. I had already settled on Db. When she had finished we asked …
“C# …!” she said very emphatically (as if it would ever be done otherwise).

[CyrilleB]

Interesting discussion.
Yes, I agree with the fact that that "So What" key should be set in Dm (this is obviously the final chord of the tune). Up to the player to determine which mode (in this case, dorian), but for some other tunes in minor keys, it can be aeolian or Phrygian. There are songs where is impossible to set a key. For ex., in the song "unforgettable", it starts in the key of F and end in the key of Bb. So for such songs, we can set it either in F or Bb. But it's necessary to always specify if it's the starting key or the ending key.

[CyrilleB]

So What - Miles Davis

[Kalokagathon]

Interesting discussion.
Yes, I agree with the fact that that "So What" key should be set in Dm (this is obviously the final chord of the tune). Up to the player to determine which mode (in this case, dorian), but for some other tunes in minor keys, it can be aeolian or Phrygian. There are songs where is impossible to set a key. For ex., in the song "unforgettable", it starts in the key of F and end in the key of Bb. So for such songs, we can set it either in F or Bb. But it's necessary to always specify if it's the starting key or the ending key.

Actually, not that difficult - I see jazz and rock musicians complicate things excessively, but in classical music it's pretty straightforward; for example:
- piece starts in key X, modulates to key Y... the key signature at the BEGINNING is what counts (for example, to call out the key - which you don't do in classical music, but you get the point)

- if you know the piece you'll know it modulates anyway, and you'll change accidentals accordingly if/when necessary (Beethoven's symphony 5, Movement 1 modulates all over the place in the course of 15', we still say it's in Cm and start out with 3 flats)

- The "Unforgettable" example above is simplistic and doesn't count - the modulation lasts all of 2 measures, hardly enough to justify saying it's in a different key...

- when I give song keys to fellow musicians for a gig, the ending key of some songs, again, has no bearing on the starting key of the song, the modulation is a "physiological" trait. BUT - for "All the things you are", for example, the key is reached at bar 4 AND at the end of the song - although modulations in between are far-reaching - so I'll say "key of F" because the melody mainly is composed of those notes, especially in section C (no more transitory accidentals used).

- "Body & Soul" has a B section that is half a step higher than the A sections. The original key is Ebm, you don't have to specify that the B section is in D, it's a natural occurrence of the song harmony

- ... and let's talk about the A section: it begins in Ebm, moves around that key for 5 measures, then quickly moves to end on Db. The typical accidentals in key are 5 (Db major), but does it really matter? As dflat said, once you know the song how it's written has little bearing - how it's written is a way to indicate how it's thought! I tend to feel it in Ebm (with 6 flats where possible) until the last few measures because to me it has a contemplative mood, so Db major leads me astray intepretation-wise.

- for songs in minor keys, if you really need to pinpoint a mode (and that, to me, is a big "if" because I don't think that way, I find it extremely limiting in basic musical approaches... but discussion for another time...), just indicate it near the tempo indication as you would the musical style (funky / shuffle / with a gospel feel / phrygian / super-locrian...). using the minor key indication of the tonal center (e.g., if F# is the basic Tonic, say "F#m" and chill )

Happy playing!

[CyrilleB]

The keys of the example you gave (body & soul, all the things you are), are pretty obvious. They all start in one key and end in the same key. What happens in the middle (modulation, key change) doesn't matter.
The case of "unforgettable" is that you end the song on a the tonic chord that is different than the key of the beginning of the song (on a Bb, not on a F). But you're probably right, most people calling the tune will have in mind that the key is the one at the start of the song.

[CyrilleB]

Also, on Body & Soul, it resolves on Db at the end of the A section. It doesn't matter which chord progression is used to lead to the resolution. It could be chords coming from different keys. The key on this song is pretty obvious