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Thread: Realbook Real Book Changes Chords

  1. #11
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    Mar 2013
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    @Bobsax, you're free to make exact duplicates of any fake books you like in your own device. I just don't see the point of spreading charts with mistakes (chords or structure) in the forum. The advantage of iRealPro is that any chart can be edited very easily and we should use that advantage to correct them when necessary.
    I'm not taking about different reharmonization, substitutions or turnarounds, but real mistakes.
    For ex, in the Real Book 1, there are 4 bars missing in the middle of "Desafinado". I can give you many other examples.

  2. #12
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    Bobsax,

    WE NEED THE CHORDS TO MATCH THE BOOKS so that when a tune is requested and the leader is using the book the piano and bass know the changes he/she is expecting.
    It really depends upon whom you're playing with.

    Experienced jazz players rarely need to have Real Books on hand in order to play standards, and we tend to agree on the "street changes" to tunes, regardless of what the Real Books say.

    My band never used Real Books on a gig. If one of us was not sure about the changes we just listened to each other.

    Cheers,
    Jer
    Jerry Engelbach
    Pianist • Arranger • Composer
    Pátzcuaro, Michoacán, México
    Music Website
    Art Website
    The Internationale Website

  3. #13
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    For using iRealPro as a play-along practicing tool, it may be more pleasant having charts with sophisticated harmonic variations. But for using it as a reference for live performance, simple basic chord charts would give more freedom of interpretation.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyrilleB View Post
    @Bobsax, you're free to make exact duplicates of any fake books you like in your own device. I just don't see the point of spreading charts with mistakes (chords or structure) in the forum. The advantage of iRealPro is that any chart can be edited very easily and we should use that advantage to correct them when necessary.
    I'm not taking about different reharmonization, substitutions or turnarounds, but real mistakes.
    For ex, in the Real Book 1, there are 4 bars missing in the middle of "Desafinado". I can give you many other examples.
    Goodness0: I don't know anybody still using the old illegal books. I thought everybody threw them out when Hal Leonard did them back in 04? They were $13 at first just to get folks to switch.
    I have been referring to them all this time . I remember the problems with Desafinado but it has been fixed. Everything is usable in the HL Realbooks now as far as I have encountered and I've been using them for the last 15 years .

    Quote Originally Posted by engelbach View Post
    Bobsax,


    It really depends upon whom you're playing with.

    Experienced jazz players rarely need to have Real Books on hand in order to play standards, and we tend to agree on the "street changes" to tunes, regardless of what the Real Books say.

    My band never used Real Books on a gig. If one of us was not sure about the changes we just listened to each other.

    Cheers,
    Jer
    Well.... I am a very experienced Jazz player and I hang out with very experienced jazz players. There are a few bass players out there that get away without the books because they hear the chordal movment (if they're good) I don't know any melody players that have all the books memorized. We can all fake it for sessions but when it's a paying gig it needs to sound like everybody is on the same page.
    There was a time when I played Joy Spring and Ceora often enough that they were memorized but I'm not working with those guys anymore and I'd need the book for it and I would want to be sure my rhythm section had the same changes as the book.
    Don't post a playlist as the songs in a Realbook if the changes aren't from the book.
    If you do transcribe changes from a book put it in the title RB1, RB2, GGB, Sher, etc

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobsax View Post
    Well.... I am a very experienced Jazz player and I hang out with very experienced jazz players. There are a few bass players out there that get away without the books because they hear the chordal movment (if they're good) I don't know any melody players that have all the books memorized. We can all fake it for sessions but when it's a paying gig it needs to sound like everybody is on the same page.
    There was a time when I played Joy Spring and Ceora often enough that they were memorized but I'm not working with those guys anymore and I'd need the book for it and I would want to be sure my rhythm section had the same changes as the book.
    Sure, there are plenty of jazz tunes in the Real Books that one rarely plays. But jazz standards and Tin Pan Alley are pretty ... well ... standard, and kind of important for everyone to know. Joy Spring and Ceora included.

    I found that most professional bass players can play just about anything. My bass player, Ed Fuqua, knew the changes to far more tunes than I, but he was easy to follow. The only time we used music stands on a gig, with sheet music, was when we had special requests in advance for tunes we were unlikely to know, like movie themes or pop tunes.

    These days I don't have as big a repertoire as I had when I was gigging every week, so, in addition to tunes I know, when I play I keep a loose-leaf book with about 50-100 tunes that I like that I'm too lazy to remember or learn.

    I'm not knocking the Real Books. I learned songs years ago from the old fake books, which had all the wrong changes, and the Real Books were an improvement on those. But for reference I still keep the old fake books 1000 Songs Volumes 1 and 2, and 500 Songs, Volume 3, and the old Modern Jazz Fake Books 1 and 2.

    Cheers,
    Jer
    Last edited by engelbach; 11-25-2017 at 08:29 PM.
    Jerry Engelbach
    Pianist • Arranger • Composer
    Pátzcuaro, Michoacán, México
    Music Website
    Art Website
    The Internationale Website

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyrilleB View Post
    For using iRealPro as a play-along practicing tool, it may be more pleasant having charts with sophisticated harmonic variations. But for using it as a reference for live performance, simple basic chord charts would give more freedom of interpretation.
    Excellent point, if one is using the sounds of the chords.

    I use iReal Pro just for backing tracks, so I'm really only interested in the bass line and drums. I can ignore the chord symbols unless I'm playing a special arrangement.

    Cheers,
    Jer
    Jerry Engelbach
    Pianist • Arranger • Composer
    Pátzcuaro, Michoacán, México
    Music Website
    Art Website
    The Internationale Website

  7. #17
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    Aug 2011
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    The guys I work with and I'm sure the guys Jerry worked with, probably Cyrille too, could go on a 3-4 hour gig and not look at a sheet of music. Everyone just knows the right changes to play. That's what I call experience and knowing the tunes. There are many tunes, especially standards, that sound too hokey when you play the Real Book changes. Experienced players know when the sub chords are needed.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymb1 View Post
    The guys I work with and I'm sure the guys Jerry worked with, probably Cyrille too, could go on a 3-4 hour gig and not look at a sheet of music. Everyone just knows the right changes to play. That's what I call experience and knowing the tunes. There are many tunes, especially standards, that sound too hokey when you play the Real Book changes. Experienced players know when the sub chords are needed.
    What I don’t think you guys get is when you’re playing a horn or melody instrument and you need to have at your fingertips the entire repertoire of the realbooks 123 and 4. You never know what request You may get and you need to know the rhythm section is going to play the changes you have in front of you .
    Are you guys honestly telling me you play with people who have 2000 songs ( that means the melody Not just the chords ) memorized? Well that’s pretty good those guys are better than me.
    It is also besides the point. That is not the premise of this thread. I would hope that we can start a sticky thread where people can submit the Hal Leonard (or whatever realbook) changes and label them appropriately .
    Don't post a playlist as the songs in a Realbook if the changes aren't from the book.
    If you do transcribe changes from a book put it in the title RB1, RB2, GGB, Sher, etc

  9. #19
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    Mar 2013
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    I agree, it's a good thing to properly label playlists, so people know what they are expecting when they import a playlist.
    As for using sheet music or iRealPro for live performance, yes, this is a different topic and everyone may have a different reason for using them or not. As for me, playing gigs with more than 20 different singers where each of them are singing in different keys, it's convenient to have a playlist for each singer in their respective keys, so I don't need to bother them asking for the key everytime. Even if I have the chord chart memorized, I just take a quick look at the chart to make sure of the key, and I'm ready to go.
    But for horns/lead players, that's another story, as they need to play the head as well

  10. #20
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    Jan 2013
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    Good to participate in a thread addressed by many of the most active forum participants.

    There are many important points that have been discussed:
    • Like Jerry, I am a pianist who only uses bass and drum sounds for backing. I regard the chord symbols only as a memory aid and often prefer "plain vanilla" symbols. I'll more sophisicated chord alterations on the fly.
    • I rarely play the exact chords found in any fake book. I rarely use a chord chart that someone else has previously posted without at least a small amout of editing. I rarely post a chord chart with the original fakebook or sheet music chords. I like to listen to different performances and take from them what I like. I agree with Bobsax that this creates issues when a group of musicians use somewhat different chord charts for the same song. Most frequently, when I post a chart, I will follow the title with "(k ver)" to indicate that I the arrangement is mine, rather than standard.
    • Most of us have many playlists on our devices, so many as to make things unwieldy. I suggested some time ago that a folder system be implemented.
    • Like Cyrille, I play for many singers who sing in different keys, and who may use different introductions and codas. My solution is to make a duplicate chart and follow the title with the singer's name. This requires different playlists for each. Brilliant minds think alike!

    I think the most important thing to do is to listen to each other. Sure, we may be doing things somewhat differently, but we do make things work out in the end.
    Last edited by Keith88; 11-26-2017 at 01:24 PM.

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