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Thread: Newbie needing direction

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    13

    Default Newbie needing direction

    Hello!

    Apologies for asking what is most likely a common question but I've spent a good amount of time watching tutorials, videos, and reading the online manual and I'm still confused.

    I'm running iRP v8.0.2 on my iMac as well as on my iPad. Right now all I want to do is input some chord changes so that I can practice improvising over them on my B flat trumpet.

    I read a post about transposing but I did not understand the answer.

    If I put a G maj scale in to iRP, do I set the Key signature to the transposing instrument? B flat? When I input the chord to G I get an A, which is not the scale I should be playing.

    I watched this video https://vimeo.com/51040860 which has a "scales" option at the bottom. My version of iRP does not have that. Has this been changed in the later versions?

    Thanks for your help!

    -tj in the Cruz Mtns
    "Don't play what's there, play what's not there." Miles Dewey Davis III
    Yamaha Custom Eric Miyashiro model
    1982 L.A. Benge MLP #39517-purchased new for my 16th birthday
    1969 Yamaha 734 #017137A
    1953 Olds Recording #124152
    Couesnon Flugel #83791
    DEG Dynasty 2v G Bugel nickel plate (SCV 50th Anniversary Alumni Corps Ax)
    Conn Director-my very first trumpet from 3rd grade

  2. #2

    Default

    Transposing can be confusing.

    I assume you have the global transpose feature activated and set to Bb. That automatically DISPLAYS all your charts in your transposed key while the player plays in the concert key.

    When you open (or write) a song in the editor, IT IS DISPLAYED IN CONCERT KEY.

    Your song is in G concert. That is how it should appear in the editor. The song's default key (in the editor) should be set to G.
    Click "Done".
    In song view, it will display in A but the player will play it in G. If you transpose the chart further in song view it will get very confusing. (but the player will still play a whole-step below the displayed chords in the chart)

    Find the guitar/ukulele/piano chord diagrams (the BIG ones) that change while the player plays. That is where the chord scales diagrams are selected. (Not the small diagrams throughout the chart found in FONTS)

    http://irealpro.com/version-history/...n-history-mac/
    )BOB
    Last edited by pdxdjazz; 10-26-2017 at 08:45 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    13

    Default

    Bob,

    Thank you for taking the time to respond. Yes, I have "Transposing instrument" in prefs set to Bb and set the editor for the song the key is in.

    I guess I don't understand the value in having the player display in A. As a novice improviser I need/want to see the notes in the chords as I play along. To me that's one of the key values of the tool, not just hearing the chords, but seeing the notes as the change progresses.

    Regards,
    TJ

    Quote Originally Posted by pdxdjazz View Post
    Transposing can be confusing.

    I assume you have the global transpose feature activated and set to Bb. That automatically DISPLAYS all your charts in your transposed key while the player plays in the concert key.

    When you open (or write) a song in the editor, IT IS DISPLAYED IN CONCERT KEY.

    Your song is in G concert. That is how it should appear in the editor. The song's default key (in the editor) should be set to G.
    Click "Done".
    In song view, it will display in A but the player will play it in G. If you transpose the chart further in song view it will get very confusing. (but the player will still play a whole-step below the displayed chords in the chart)

    Find the guitar/ukulele/piano chord diagrams (the BIG ones) that change while the player plays. That is where the chord scales diagrams are selected. (Not the small diagrams throughout the chart found in FONTS)

    http://irealpro.com/version-history/...n-history-mac/
    )BOB
    "Don't play what's there, play what's not there." Miles Dewey Davis III
    Yamaha Custom Eric Miyashiro model
    1982 L.A. Benge MLP #39517-purchased new for my 16th birthday
    1969 Yamaha 734 #017137A
    1953 Olds Recording #124152
    Couesnon Flugel #83791
    DEG Dynasty 2v G Bugel nickel plate (SCV 50th Anniversary Alumni Corps Ax)
    Conn Director-my very first trumpet from 3rd grade

  4. #4

    Default

    Have you found the CHORD SCALES diagrams that can be displayed measure by measure during play?

    Those diagrams should be helpful to you.
    iReal pro is a chord chart app.

    I play with a clarinetist (also a Bb instrument). He has learned how to read/follow the chord changes in concert-key charts. For example, he's happy looking over another player's shoulder at a C - RealBook. Instead of using a Bb - RealBook. My point: you don't have to use the global transpose feature. It's optional.
    )BOB
    Last edited by pdxdjazz; 10-27-2017 at 02:07 AM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    13

    Default

    Bob,

    I fear either I'm doing something wrong or not communicating clearly.

    I think that I AM using the chord scales diagrams, and they're the ones that are reading concert whilst I'm playing a Bb chord. For a newbie, I can't transpose on the fly and pay attention to the measure I'm on as well as the notes in the chords.

    Regards,
    TJ


    Quote Originally Posted by pdxdjazz View Post
    Have you found the CHORD SCALES diagrams that can be displayed measure by measure during play?

    Those diagrams should be helpful to you.
    iReal pro is a chord chart app.

    I play with a clarinetist (also a Bb instrument). He has learned how to read/follow the chord changes in concert-key charts. For example, he's happy looking over another player's shoulder at a C - RealBook. Instead of using a Bb - RealBook. My point: you don't have to use the global transpose feature. It's optional.
    )BOB
    "Don't play what's there, play what's not there." Miles Dewey Davis III
    Yamaha Custom Eric Miyashiro model
    1982 L.A. Benge MLP #39517-purchased new for my 16th birthday
    1969 Yamaha 734 #017137A
    1953 Olds Recording #124152
    Couesnon Flugel #83791
    DEG Dynasty 2v G Bugel nickel plate (SCV 50th Anniversary Alumni Corps Ax)
    Conn Director-my very first trumpet from 3rd grade

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,842

    Default

    From what I can understand, you want to improvise with some chords with your Bb trumpet. As you know there is the concert key and a different key for trumpet. The trumpet chords you want to practice with on trumpet will need to be transposed to concert before you save the song and start the player.
    The easiest way to do this is to input your trumpet chords, then transpose to concert before saving.

    Create a new song, title it and set the key (of the chords for your trumpet, meaning, if you have some G major scales to practice on trumpet or the song is in your trumpet key of G or the chord progressions are based in G, then set it to G.) Change the key to G and click the Set button.
    Choose a default playback style (as you probably know, you can change this in song view).
    Enter a time signature, add barlines and chords as required.
    Once finished, you will need to transpose this song to Concert key a whole step (tone) below, in this case, change the key to F and click the Set and Transpose button. Save, Close.

    Make sure Global transpose is set for your trumpet, in Prefs set to Bb instrument. You will now see it back to G, but the player will know it in F concert, which is what you should see bottom right in the Key window (if it is not set to F, then change it there).

    You will need to be able to think in both your concert key and your trumpet Bb key but this will come over time as you deal with keys. The player needs to be set to the song's concert key; songs need to be either created in concert or entered in the instrument's key, then Set and Transpose to concert key before saving so you need to be able to convert in your head from your key to concert key to do this last step.
    In song view, the player thinks in concert key and this is the key you choose in the Key window (and this only works if you have correctly saved concert chords and specified its key in concert in edit mode).

    For the future, here are a few other keys to help you convert. The first key is your trumpet (Bb) key, the second is concert.
    G - F
    D - C
    E - D
    A - G
    G - F
    C - Bb

    If you want to change a few of the chords of a practice song for further learning, you could duplicate the song, in Edit mode, change the chords back to your trumpet key (temporarily) (up a whole tone so it is showing in your trumpet key again) using Set and Transpose (in this case, to key G), make your changes, then (key F) Set transpose back down to concert before you save.

    As you progress, you can use these same charts (songs) as practice for other keys. For instance, your F (concert) song you entered above (seen by you in G) can be transposed in Song view using the soft transpose menu (bottom right). For example if you want to practice these chords now in your trumpet's key of D, then change it to C (concert key). It will play in concert C but show you the chords in D.

    When you turn on scales, these will show in your trumpet's key (assuming Global transpose is set to Bb).

    I hope this helps.

  7. #7

    Default

    I may have misunderstood your question. I thought you meant that G was your concert key (A transposed for your instrument). It appears you meant that G was the transposed for your instrument key. (F concert)
    Just follow dflat's helpful explanation. (Thanks)
    )BOB

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    13

    Default

    Thanks to both dflat and Bob for the information.

    While I'm a "re-entry" player I do understand basic music theory, as well as the distinction between the key of my horn, other instruments, and concert.

    I've spent several hours with iRP and have tried dflat's suggestions, but I still can't get it to work in a way that is helpful. Unless one of you is personally responsible for iRP's interface you should not take my comments personally. I find the product very hard to use, and in this case, it's getting in the way of me actually practicing. I'm spending way more time just trying how to input chords so that I can play along, than I am actually playing my horn. I can see that the app has great power but I don't think that it's well suited to me at this point.

    I realize that there is a lot of complexity in jazz chords and improvisation and that by nature a tool like this is going to be hard to design. It's simply too confusing for me right now. Hopefully as my skill set and knowledge base improve I'll be able to come back to it, but even something as simple as inserting bar lines seems confusing (do I use my mouse to click where I want the bar line? space bar? tab?) I've gotten it to play chords that I've input, but they've not really been useful due to the whole tranpsosition thing.

    Thank you again for taking the time to respond, I hope to return some day when I understand all of this better.

    Sincerely,
    TJ
    "Don't play what's there, play what's not there." Miles Dewey Davis III
    Yamaha Custom Eric Miyashiro model
    1982 L.A. Benge MLP #39517-purchased new for my 16th birthday
    1969 Yamaha 734 #017137A
    1953 Olds Recording #124152
    Couesnon Flugel #83791
    DEG Dynasty 2v G Bugel nickel plate (SCV 50th Anniversary Alumni Corps Ax)
    Conn Director-my very first trumpet from 3rd grade

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,842

    Default

    Hello TJ,
    You could tell us exactly what you want to do, with some chords you want to work with in the key of your trumpet (attach a jpg, or type them in here) perhaps 16 bars or something and we can help you more.
    Also how you want to practice and what you want the player to do to assist this.

    iReal Pro works for many players to learn their material so there would be ways it can help you. Also if we describe it here, others who come across this thread may find it useful.
    Thanks.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    13

    Default

    dflat,

    Attached is the chart and the changes that I want to practice. What I want to do is to input the chords for the solo (G, E7+9, A7 Ami7/D, G7+9, etc.) and then play along with it. I would like to use the chord scales function so that I can see the notes in each change in the key of my Bb trumpet, and play along with the changes so that I can internalize the notes, chords, and progression.

    One thing I find particularly challenging, and this is not endemic only to iRP, is that the language of jazz chords is subject to lots of inconsistencies. (If I type E7 iRP recognizes this but it does not recognize +9, so I'm not sure if I use the #9 notation in this case). Another challenge as I've mentioned, is that it frequently barks at me because I don't construct the measures properly and I don't exactly understand where the chord goes in the measure (I assume right at the beginning) and then how many spaces (if any) go between it and other chord in the same measure. I also don't really understand how to insert the end bar. Again, do I tab, or just click my mouse ahead a bit, or space bar? iRP sometimes tells me that it can't understand my measures. I don't recall the exact language.

    I'm far from computer illiterate, and I am semi-proficient at video editing tools such as Premiere Pro and others, so I feel like the application could be easier to use.

    Here' the chart, as well as the changes, and then what I've got in iRP. Ignore that the current key sig is set to G. As you'll see it should be in F based on the fact that the first chord is an F (concert) but it's displaying G (transposed to trumpet as dflat instructed. I was noodling around trying to change something and couldn't figure out how to get it back to where it was and I've already created about 5 versions of this chart just trying to practice and I didn't want to delete it another time.

    Thanks again,
    TJClick image for larger version. 

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    "Don't play what's there, play what's not there." Miles Dewey Davis III
    Yamaha Custom Eric Miyashiro model
    1982 L.A. Benge MLP #39517-purchased new for my 16th birthday
    1969 Yamaha 734 #017137A
    1953 Olds Recording #124152
    Couesnon Flugel #83791
    DEG Dynasty 2v G Bugel nickel plate (SCV 50th Anniversary Alumni Corps Ax)
    Conn Director-my very first trumpet from 3rd grade

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