Need help with an AABBB arrangement, please.

Each section has a different ending, so perhaps that could better be depicted as: A1A2B1B2B3. After working with them for a month, I thought I understood how repeats work, but apparently I don't. I've done forum searches and haven't found this. Rather than attach my actual tune (which is loaded with lyrics), I've built a couple of samples that show my efforts at this general arrangement. Neither of them plays properly. Can't figure what I'm doing wrong here. Help would sure be appreciated on this one. Thanks in advance.

AABBB problem (2)

1. New Song 3 - Unknown Composer
2. New Song 4 - Unknown Composer

This looks similar to your chart for C'est Si Bon (which didn't play as you described it for me either). I think this may be a programming quirk, since the repeats/endings play fine when the A and B structures are reversed (see attached):

New Song 5 - Unknown Composer

Let's hope the Admin's can solve this mystery. But I will add, for future reference, putting repeats within an ending is a bad habit to get into. You should either write out all the measures, or use "repeat measures" symbols, as I have substituted here. Just one less thing to confuse the Player (and the reader). And if you're cramped for length, remember measures don't always need to be 4 spaces to play correctly.

Thanks for the tips, DaleMac. Comments and advice from real musicians are always very much appreciated. I'll use repeat measures symbols from now on.

As to my AABBB syntax problem, yes, my files New Song 3 and New Song 4 are in the general form of my arrangement of C'est Si Bon. I wanted to simplify my illustration of the problem, and I couldn't send the one with lyrics anyway.

My files didn't play properly for you, either; I'm wondering if they would play correctly if you made them yourself, especially New Song 3. I.e., is the problem with the particular way I built the files? Or it is a problem for everyone building in with iReal Pro for iOS7?

I'm still trying to think of a workaround; I tried incorporating a Coda for part of it, but have not found a way to make that work right, either. But I really don't understand why my New Song 3 doesn't work, just as it's written.

I wonder: Could the order of entering make a difference? I.e., does it matter whether you enter the endings in order by number? Do you have to make an ending with a coda sign before you put the coda in the main part of the score? Or vice versa? Same query regarding the Dal Signo signs and instructions? Or how about the forward and backward repeat signs, [: and :] — ? Does it matter which you enter first?

Also, I wonder whether the bar lines themselves can make a difference. E.g., does it matter whether you enter a single bar line at the end of a bar or at the beginning of the next bar? Same query with regard to double bar lines for separating sections. I see in the sticky file on conventions that we are not supposed to superimpose repeat symbols over bar lines. Is that just a cosmetic convention or can it screw up the playback? Same question regarding superimposing a double-bar line over a single-bar line—and whether it's a front-end or back-end single or double. Could any of that make a difference in playback? Could it be that it matters whether you make a mistake like that and correct it—as compared with writing it properly without having had to make a correction? . . . so many variations to try.

Well, I've done some more experimenting, and I would be inclined to say that iReal Pro for iOS7 simply will not play back correctly if there are two number 1 endings anywhere in the piece. . . . were it not for the fact that your New Song 5 works fine with two number 1 endings. All you did was reverse the A and B sections, and that worked fine.

Makes me wonder: What if I originally build my arrangement upside down, i.e., with the B section (with its three numbered endings) first and the A section (with its two numbered endings) second . . . and then use cut and paste to reverse them (which I assume is what you did). Would my arrangement suddenly play correctly then? Guess I'll try that next and report back.

EDIT: I just now tried reversing your New Song 5, and it wouldn't play back properly then.

sorry for the problems you are having. I have had a quick look and I understand what you want to do.
As a suggestion you could write out the first section in full (instead of having repeats.) This means the player only has one set of repeats and 1, 2, 3 time bars to deal with.
We will look into how the player interprets something like this.

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Originally Posted by nimbleswitch

My files didn't play properly for you, either; I'm wondering if they would play correctly if you made them yourself, especially New Song 3. I.e., is the problem with the particular way I built the files? Or it is a problem for everyone building in with iReal Pro for iOS7?

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It is how our song code interprets the symbols on the page. We will take a look at this.

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Originally Posted by nimbleswitch

I wonder: Could the order of entering make a difference? I.e., does it matter whether you enter the endings in order by number? Do you have to make an ending with a coda sign before you put the coda in the main part of the score? Or vice versa? Same query regarding the Dal Signo signs and instructions? Or how about the forward and backward repeat signs, [: and :] — ? Does it matter which you enter first?

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No.

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Originally Posted by nimbleswitch

Also, I wonder whether the bar lines themselves can make a difference. E.g., does it matter whether you enter a single bar line at the end of a bar or at the beginning of the next bar?

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no

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Originally Posted by nimbleswitch

Same query with regard to double bar lines for separating sections. I see in the sticky file on conventions that we are not supposed to superimpose repeat symbols over bar lines. Is that just a cosmetic convention or can it screw up the playback? Same question regarding superimposing a double-bar line over a single-bar line—and whether it's a front-end or back-end single or double. Could any of that make a difference in playback? Could it be that it matters whether you make a mistake like that and correct it—as compared with writing it properly without having had to make a correction? . . . so many variations to try.

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barlines on top of each other, only cosmetic. The player should just ignore this if it happens. From which space you put the barline (its right or its left) makes no difference.

A somewhat off-topic footnote regarding barlines, for nimbleswitch and anyone else who's interested: The Player doesn't completely ignore double-barlines and repeat symbols - they will affect the drum pattern slightly. A random double-barline is usually followed by a cymbal crash on the first beat, and a repeat sign usually triggers an anticipatory drum fill in the preceding measure. (I use this trick in a few of my personal charts, but I wouldn't recommend them for mass distribution since it's not an accepted scoring convention, and can look goofy.) Likewise, different section letters plus a double-barline will result in a different rhythm feel on many of the Styles. This combination is especially necessary for the "Jazz - Swing Two/Four" and "Jazz - Latin/Swing" settings to work properly.

Thanks for your response, dflat. I already did try writing out the first section without repeats, as you suggested, and that would work except for the fact that with one line for an Intro—at the top where it belongs ;)— and two lines for the closing endings, I needed 13 lines for this chart. Well, I actually did figure out how to make an iReal Pro chart with 13 lines and it works well, albeit a bit squashed. (See recent thread on that.) But it seemed that it would look better in 12 lines, and that it should easily play with simple repeats in the first section.

I've been working with it all afternoon and it's turning out that the culprit really is the use of two 1st Ending signs. The second BC sections with their three endings work fine if you remove that first 1st Ending sign up in section A, but with both 1st Endings in there the final endings will not play correctly, even though it appears that they should. (See Test 1, attached.) I also thought that it should work using Da Segno endings, but iReal Pro wouldn't play that at all, even though it seems to look right on the chart, too. (See Test 2, attached.)

The bottom line is: If you already have one repeated section, with a 1st Ending sign in it, and you later make a second repeated section that has three endings, iReal Pro will not play the third ending properly.

If the first repeated section has just a forward repeat sign and a back repeat sign without a 1st Ending sign in between—no problem. It seems to be the existence of the 1st Ending sign itself that sets up the problem. (Even just tossing in an extraneous-debris 1st Ending sign that is doing nothing up in the first section will mess up the endings at the bottom.)

From a practical standpoint, this means that you cannot have a repeated section that has three endings if you earlier had a repeated section with two or more endings. (Like the chart I've been trying to arrange here.) This would not often be needed for just writing down a tune, but it quite often will be needed for charting an arrangement for performance, particularly in jazz with its solo repeats. And my impression is that quite a few members are using iReal Pro that way.

Maybe admin and tech support will get a chance to look at this problem.

Thanks, again, dflat, for your quick response, even on the weekend. This is a great forum.


AABBB problem (2)

1. C'est Si Bon - Test 1 - Henri Betti Bb André Hornez (1947)
2. C'est Si Bon - Test 2 - Henri Betti Bb André Hornez (1947)

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Originally Posted by DaleMac

A somewhat off-topic footnote regarding barlines, for nimbleswitch and anyone else who's interested: The Player doesn't completely ignore double-barlines and repeat symbols - they will affect the drum pattern slightly. A random double-barline is usually followed by a cymbal crash on the first beat, and a repeat sign usually triggers an anticipatory drum fill in the preceding measure. (I use this trick in a few of my personal charts, but I wouldn't recommend them for mass distribution since it's not an accepted scoring convention, and can look goofy.) Likewise, different section letters plus a double-barline will result in a different rhythm feel on many of the Styles. This combination is especially necessary for the "Jazz - Swing Two/Four" and "Jazz - Latin/Swing" settings to work properly.

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Interesting stuff, DaleMac, about modifying the drum kit play. It would be nice if iReal Pro had a way of resting the drum entirely, too—like the N.C. that will rest the chord player—don't you think?

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Originally Posted by nimbleswitch

...but it [I]quite often will be needed for charting an arrangement for performance, particularly in jazz with its solo repeats...

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The player supports basic forms using D.S. and D.C and as you have discovered do not cover other possibilities. We are aware more scenarios need to be catered for. We will look into this, thanks.

Thanks, dflat. Great app; great board.

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Originally Posted by DaleMac

The Player doesn't completely ignore double-barlines and repeat symbols - they will affect the drum pattern slightly.

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And I have stumbled across a serious situation wherein it makes a great deal of difference during playback whether you made the double bar line at the back of a measure as contrasted with making it at the beginning of the next measure. It has to do with 1st and 2nd endings.

If I have a 1st ending box with a D.S. to 2nd Ending in it, which is followed immediately by the 2nd ending box itself:

If I create a double bar line between the two boxes by using only the double bar at the back of the 1st ending box, the tune will play correctly, i.e., it will play the 1st ending, jump back up to the Segno, then play back down to the endings and play the 2nd ending only, just as it's supposed to.

But, if I create a double bar line between the two boxes by using only the double bar at the front of the 2nd ending box, the tune will play the 1st ending, then immediately play the 2nd ending, just as if there were no D.S to 2nd Ending in the 1st ending box at all.

I can edit the double bar line back and forth and this good-play, bad-play switch happens every time.

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Originally Posted by nimbleswitch

And I have stumbled across a serious situation wherein it makes a great deal of difference during playback whether you made the double bar line at the back of a measure as contrasted with making it at the beginning of the next measure. It has to do with 1st and 2nd endings...

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Usually a 1st time ending does not have a DS because it goes back to where the opening repeat is, so at the end of the ending is a closing repeat. I am not sure we have taken into account a DS or DC inside a 1st time ending in how the player behaves. Normally you would use a coda sign just before the 1st time ending so it can jump to the 'coda' which is where your 2nd time ending starts, and use DC or DS al coda.

Could you post (perhaps a reduced version) of the song with the main sections? Someone here can look at it. It could be that with the available player symbols and behaviors it is not easily possible.

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Originally Posted by dflat

Could you post (perhaps a reduced version) of the song with the main sections? Someone here can look at it. It could be that with the available player symbols and behaviors it is not easily possible.

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Double Bar Test (2)

1. Double Bar Test (Baubles, Bangles and Beads) 1 - Borodin-Forrest-Wright
2. Double Bar Test (Baubles, Bangles and Beads) 2 - Borodin-Forrest-Wright

They appear identical, but No. 1 works correctly, while No. 2 doesn't.

I do realize that there may be other ways of making this particular arrangement play correctly — this is just the one that happened to occur to me as I was making it.

I realize B,B&B is only an example, but I don't understand why you'd want to use 1st and 2nd endings when they are identical. A simple repeat section is all you'd need.
The coda sign is always used in pairs. The first one says, "on the final time, jump from here to the other coda sign."

You have discovered an interesting fact, sometimes it might matter how you enter a double-bar.

If the endings were actually different, here's how I'd construct the chart:
Double Bar Test (Baubles, Bangles and Beads) 3 - Borodin-Forrest-Wright

(according to the conventions)
http://www.irealb.com/forums/showthr...&p=301#post301
:))BOB

Bob, thanks for taking so much time with this.

My two endings are different because they lead on to different sections.

The Coda in my charts is purely visual. It does nothing on playback; I don't need it in there at all.

I don't like using the external global repeats because I want my arrangements to play just as they appear on the chart. If I play your chart 3 without global repeats, i.e., 1x, it just plays out the Coda immediately with no repeats. If I leave your chart with the 3x in global repeats (as it arrived on my computer), the arrangement it plays is: A'BCA"CA"A'BCA"CA"A'BCA", but my arrangement is simply A'BCA"CA"A'BCA". The first A'BCA" is for a vocal, the next CA" is for an instrumental, and then it finishes with an A'BCA" vocal. If I set your chart to 2x in global repeats then it does play my arrangement correctly, but there's no way to tell from the chart alone what it's going to play. You have to check for external global repeats and know that on 2x the player will play right through the terminal bar ending (which isn't normal for a music chart) and begin replaying from A'. (It took me a while to figure out how you made the chart play from A' after the second ending. I didn't notice the terminal bar ending at first; I thought it was just a double bar.)

Thanks for your explanation. It's amazing that the player-feature (which was developed as a simple tool for practice) can be used for more complicated arrangements and actual performance quality tracks.

Thanks for sharing your discoveries.
:))BOB

Yeah, it's a lot of fun just playing around with this app. I did notice, on re-readin the Conventions page that you sent, that near the very top it says ". . . we came from a jazz perspective initially so we saw the app as being something you might have to use on a gig (perhaps without a rehearsal) so clarity and consistency were important to us." I can't say that I remember reading that the first time I read the Conventions page. So, it seems that they were thinking about making arrangements for gigging from the start. However, maybe they just mean they envisioned musicians just using the chart at gigs, not gigging with the playback. But it seems people are using it that way. A couple of months ago in Palm Springs I saw and heard a jazz sax man playing a solo gig, and he played against iReal (b or Pro) playback all evening.

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Originally Posted by nimbleswitch

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I can edit the double bar line back and forth and this good-play, bad-play switch happens every time.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by nimbleswitch

They appear identical, but No. 1 works correctly, while No. 2 doesn't.
I do realize that there may be other ways of making this particular arrangement play correctly — this is just the one that happened to occur to me as I was making it.

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Yes this is a bit odd, but you have not used a closing repeat at the end of the 1st time ending which is what the player is expecting to see. I cannot remember ever seeing a 1st time ending without a closing repeat, they might exist but I am not sure they are very common because generally you can simply use repeats (unless it has a complicated form or nested repeats etc.)
So we did not check the behavior of the location of the double barline for this instance.

Just to make it clear to anyone else following this thread, here is a way to have the form, by changing where the opening repeat and segno are:
(I think this is what you would have done already Jack?)

BBB more correct - Borodin-Forrest-Wright

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Originally Posted by nimbleswitch

". . . we came from a jazz perspective initially so we saw the app as being something you might have to use on a gig (perhaps without a rehearsal) so clarity and consistency were important to us."

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That was written before the player existed so applied to the clarity of the chart. As many of you have found out, if you want the player to work, sometimes you have to arrange it in other ways depending on how you want the form to play for either performance or practice, but we want to adhere to normal notation conventions where possible so it works as either a visual chart or the player being 'intelligent' enough to follow the symbols, repeats etc. as a musician would. Obviously there are compromises, one of them is having the limitation of a single page, where usually in print you can add another page and copy/paste sections to make it clear.

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Originally Posted by nimbleswitch

...(on the Conventions page) it says ". . . we came from a jazz perspective initially so we saw the app as being something you might have to use on a gig (perhaps without a rehearsal) so clarity and consistency were important to us." ... maybe they just mean they envisioned musicians just using the chart at gigs, not gigging with the playback....

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iReal book and subsequently, iReal b initially did not have a built-in player. I suspect the app was initially designed as an electronic (and transposing!) version Pocket Changes, a small format, spiral-bound, chords-only fake-booklet popular with bassists.
Still available:
http://www.jazzbooks.com/mm5/merchan...C#.UrNas_F5mK0
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?P...8994#msg798994

The player feature was added later and (I believe) was intended for practice use.
I think the first mention of performance use of the player wasn't until April, 2010
http://www.irealb.com/forums/showthr...=3464#post3464

:))BOB

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Originally Posted by nimbleswitch

Yeah, it's a lot of fun just playing around with this app. I did notice, on re-readin the Conventions page that you sent, that near the very top it says ". . . we came from a jazz perspective initially so we saw the app as being something you might have to use on a gig (perhaps without a rehearsal) so clarity and consistency were important to us." I can't say that I remember reading that the first time I read the Conventions page. So, it seems that they were thinking about making arrangements for gigging from the start. However, maybe they just mean they envisioned musicians just using the chart at gigs, not gigging with the playback. But it seems people are using it that way. A couple of months ago in Palm Springs I saw and heard a jazz sax man playing a solo gig, and he played against iReal (b or Pro) playback all evening.

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I gig using iReal as my "sidemen" quite frequently. (It is, in fact, the sole purpose I bought my iPod Touch for originally.) And I often use "tricks" in my personal charts to make the Player do things (especially on endings). But, as I've said before, files posted for public distribution (particularly in the "Songs" Forum) should be a reasonable compromise between playback and sight-reading, and always meet accepted manuscript norms. My initial worry about incorporating some of Jack's discoveries is that they might not work so well in future versions of iReal. And lord knows what happens if you try to export them to another program. Anyway, just tossing in my two cents. Have fun and good luck.
;)

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Originally Posted by dflat

Yes this is a bit odd, but you have not used a closing repeat at the back of the 1st time ending which is what the player is expecting to see. I cannot remember ever seeing a 1st time ending without a closing repeat, they might exist but I am not sure they are very common because generally you can simply use repeats (unless it has a complicated form or nested repeats etc.)
So we did not check the behavior of the location of the double barline for this instance.

Just to make it clear to anyone else following this thread, here is a way to have the form, by changing where the opening repeat and segno are:
(I think this is what you would have done already Jack?)

BBB more correct - Borodin-Forrest-Wright

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Hi, dflat-

I wonder if you noticed that your form suffers from the same quirk as mine? You inserted a double bar at the back of the 2nd Ending. But if you go in and remove that double bar and instead insert it from the front of the next measure (i.e., the Coda measure), when you play it back it goes straight to Coda and out — no repeats.

I guess the lesson is to make sure to insert the double bars at the end of a section, not at the beginning of the next section — at least in an Ending. Maybe in other instances as well, I dunno. Anyway, as long as we're careful to insert double bars at the end of the last measure in the section, either of our forms plays well in playback. It just becomes a matter of which form you prefer to see on the chart. I'm no musician or musicologist, so I don't really know, but I think I like the looks of yours better, for some reason.

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Originally Posted by nimbleswitch

I wonder if you noticed that your form suffers from the same quirk as mine?

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I am not surprised, no I did not check. As I finished that measure, I just inserted the right barline to end it.
We will look into this quirk, thanks.

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Originally Posted by nimbleswitch

I'm no musician or musicologist, so I don't really know, but I think I like the looks of yours better, for some reason.

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Mine adheres to music convention. Your way could be valid (although not usual - like I said, I have never seen it) but there is no reason I can think of to have it the way you had it when it can be done in this way.

While we're on the subject of the numbered Endings, the phrase, e.g., "D.S. al 3rd End." won't fit in a single 4-bars-to-a-line (system) measure, but I've found that you don't need that entire phrase. Just "D.S. al 3rd" works just as well on playback and will fit in one normal measure. Caution, though, as others have pointed out, there's no guarantee this will work in future updates or versions.

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Originally Posted by nimbleswitch

..."D.S. al 3rd End." won't fit in a single 4-bars-to-a-line (system) measure...

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If you're placing that on the far right measure, it can run off the page and the Player doesn't care. (But someone else trying to read the chart might care.) ;)

True. :D I'm pretty used to just "D.S. al 3rd" now for my charts anyway. I've been using the 3rd Ending lately instead of the Coda, mostly because my charts are full of lyrics and the Coda sign seems to plop down in the middle of lyric text too often.

I'm about halfway through converting my lyrics charts over such they are more like dflat suggested, except using a 3rd Ending instead of a Coda. So I suppose my charts are still not going to be conventional -- but they're just for me anyway.