Please clarify the rules for third endings

I am trying to enter a song with first, second, and third endings.

I put an open repeat at the beginning of the part I want to repeat, and a close repeat at the end of the first ending. No problem so far: It plays the body, the first ending, the body again, and the second ending. But now I don't understand how to get it to go back to the open repeat and then skip the second ending.

I tried putting a sign at the repeat point and adding "D.S. al 3rd ending" at the end of the second ending, but that didn't seem to do anything about skipping the second ending the second time around.

So is there a formula for doing this so that it works? The online manual seems vague.

Make sure you have a closing repeat at the last 2nd ending bar, then 3rd time bar indication on the next bar.

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Originally Posted by dflat

Make sure you have a closing repeat at the last 2nd ending bar, then 3rd time bar indication on the next bar.

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An, I thought that the player insisted on statically matching open and close repeats. Let me try it.

OK, that did the trick; thanks!

However, having done that, I now realize that it's not quite what I want. What I really want is an intro followed by an AABAC form. There must be an easy way of doing that...

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Originally Posted by ark

...What I really want is an intro followed by an AABAC form. There must be an easy way of doing that...

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(To insert the Intro, put the cursor on beat 1 measure 1 and insert some beats to move everything along.)
Use the rehearsal letter IN on measure 1, beat 1. Then make sure you use a letter A at the first bar of the A section (which I assume you have anyway.) This tells it that the intro has finished.

The intro only plays the first time even if you have numerous choruses set in the Player window (unless you use a D.C. somewhere.)

I understand that. The thing is that the AABAC form I'm talking about is equivalent to a section with multiple endings in which the first ending is empty, and it's not possible to have an empty ending as far as I know.

Try playing this sample song:

AABAC - Unknown Composer

is the form what you were wanting?

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Originally Posted by dflat

Try playing this sample song:

AABAC - Unknown Composer

is the form what you were wanting?

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Yes, and it is very much like what I tried, except that I used "D. S. al 3rd ending," which didn't seem to work. I'll try some more,experiments tomorrow.

AABAC 1 - Unknown Composer

It might be this?

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Originally Posted by dflat

AABAC 1 - Unknown Composer

It might be this?

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Yes, that's exactly what I wanted. However, when I tried to do that, playback sailed right through "D.S. al 3rd end" as if it weren't there. Is there something magic about its placement? About the double bar line?

Aha! I see the problem. If a bar has "D.S. al 3rd end" but ends with a single rather than a double barline, the instruction seems to be ignored during playback.

So there's something magic about double barlines. Can you explain the rules for how the player treats barlines? Also, it seems to me that it is possible for two bars to be separated by two barlines, which you would do by putting one after the first bar and another before the second. That seems weird for me, and I would think there is no reason ever to do it; but perhaps you could tell me if that ability is intended to be useful and, if so, what its effect is?

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Originally Posted by ark

Aha! I see the problem. If a bar has "D.S. al 3rd end" but ends with a single rather than a double barline, the instruction seems to be ignored during playback.

So there's something magic about double barlines. Can you explain the rules for how the player treats barlines? Also, it seems to me that it is possible for two bars to be separated by two barlines, which you would do by putting one after the first bar and another before the second. That seems weird for me, and I would think there is no reason ever to do it; but perhaps you could tell me if that ability is intended to be useful and, if so, what its effect is?

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Yes you need a double bar for a rehearsal instruction to work.
This makes sense as you not would jump D.C. from the middle of a section (the rest of that section would then never be played)

You have left bar lines and right bar lines.
You can use whichever you like.
If you are at the end of a system you need the right and if you are at the beginning you use the left.

Aha! -- so a double bar actually has semantics beyond its looks.

Are there other semantic rules associated with it? Also, are there semantic rules associated with rehearsal letters? If so, do different letters carry different rules?

When using dual styles (latin/swing or Swing two/four or most pop styles...) A sections will be in one feel while B,C,D sections will be in the other feel.

Dual styles? Is this a feature I didn't know about? (I'm aware of the Latin/Swing setting, but a 2-beat/4-beat option would be wonderful, as would Ballad/Swing.) Or am I misinterpreting your statement?

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Originally Posted by DaleMac

Dual styles? Is this a feature I didn't know about? (I'm aware of the Latin/Swing setting, but a 2-beat/4-beat option would be wonderful, as would Ballad/Swing.) Or am I misinterpreting your statement?

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Jazz Swing two/four is coming in the next iOS and Mac update (very soon.)
Android has it already in v2.0.

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Originally Posted by ark

...Also, it seems to me that it is possible for two bars to be separated by two barlines, which you would do by putting one after the first bar and another before the second. That seems weird for me, and I would think there is no reason ever to do it; but perhaps you could tell me if that ability is intended to be useful and, if so, what its effect is?

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Putting two single barlines on top of each other should have no real effect other than being slightly messy if you notice it. I try to delete a single barline when I need a double, or repeat (or final) there. Either the left beat or the right beat on each side of the barline can be used to create the barline needed.

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Originally Posted by ark

Aha! -- so a double bar actually has semantics beyond its looks.

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It is common in normal music notation to use the double barline to mean something like a period's use in finishing a sentence, meaning the end of a section and beginning of the next. We have one at the end of each rehearsal section and the end of a 2nd (etc.) time section.

I like your "period" analogy! Worth noting that you can put double-bars all over the place but, unless accompanied by a Rehearsal letter, the player will ignore it. I always use the left-side single bar, since the Editor automatically adds the bar at the end of a line when you start a new one below it. (Things get tricky when using Vertical-Space Arrows, but that's a different topic.) If you start a new line with a double-bar, the Editor leaves the end of the preceding line blank, reminding you to insert a double-bar (or repeat) there too. Scoring is usually easier when you let the Editor's logic help you along.

I am having trouble doing something that should be simple. The tune has an A. section with 1st and 2nd ending, then a bridge. After the bridge I want to repeat the A. section with a 3rd. ending. Then repeat everything. I could possibly live with using the 2nd ending on that last chorus. I don't want to have to write out the whole A. section with the 2nd ending included. Is there a good way to do this, maybe using DC or DS's?

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Originally Posted by ericvv

I am having trouble doing something that should be simple. The tune has an A. section with 1st and 2nd ending, then a bridge. After the bridge I want to repeat the A. section with a 3rd. ending. Then repeat everything. I could possibly live with using the 2nd ending on that last chorus. I don't want to have to write out the whole A. section with the 2nd ending included. Is there a good way to do this, maybe using DC or DS's?

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For help with a chart, ALWAYS post it (in iRp format) with your question so it can be opened in the editor.
That said, see if this helps:
Albatros, The - Wayne Shorter

:))BOB

Hi Eric,

Here is a chord chart for "The Nearness of You" that has the structure you describe: AA'BA''. It plays the two A sections with first and second endings, continues to the bridge and returns to the opening measures of the A section going to a third ending. On the last time through the form, it goes to a coda instead of the turn-around at the end of the tune.

The rules are pretty simple: put a repeat sign at the end of the first and second endings and a double bar at the end of the third ending. You don't need a repeat sign at the beginning of the chart. However, if there is an introduction that is not part of the form, then a repeat sign at the beginning of the form is necessary.

I hope this gives you a good example.

Nearness Of You (demo), The - Hoagy Carmichael

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Originally Posted by Keith88

Hi Eric,

Here is a chord chart for "The Nearness of You" that has the structure you describe: AA'BA''. It plays the two A sections with first and second endings, continues to the bridge and returns to the opening measures of the A section going to a third ending. On the last time through the form, it goes to a coda instead of the turn-around at the end of the tune.

The rules are pretty simple: put a repeat sign at the end of the first and second endings and a double bar at the end of the third ending. You don't need a repeat sign at the beginning of the chart. However, if there is an introduction that is not part of the form, then a repeat sign at the beginning of the form is necessary.

I hope this gives you a good example.

Nearness Of You (demo), The - Hoagy Carmichael

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Keith:
That did it just fine. I guess I forgot my meds the day that I tried it! Thanks for the help.

Eric

You're welcome, Eric. Here is a simple demo of multiple endings with an intro:

Multiple Endings with intro - demo